To Aid or Not to Aid Tallis, That Is the Question. | Fandom (2024)

While the Qun does occupy somewhere in the evil spectrum (lawful evil, if you ask me.), I am not sure they are “true evil.”

For all the issues of enforcing a collective will the Qun has it is accurate that members of the Qun are cared for and rather then assigning roles based on things like race they are assigned based on if one actually works well in the role.

^Personally, I don't think there are varying degrees of evil, like lawful, neutral, chaotic or any other classification anyone might give. You're either evil, or you're not. And the Qun, as far as I'm concerned, is most definitely evil.

Like Hawke said in Mark of the Assassin, "They're fanatics out to destroy any sense of free will". That is the ultimate form of tyranny, and they take it even further the than the damned Tevinter Imperium. A slave in the Imperium may be treated like a dog, used in as a blood sacrifice, or otherwise be subjected to any number of horrors or humiliation, but in the end, a slave's mind will always belong to them. The Qun is out to strip people of their very minds, teach them not to think beyond their assigned role under pain of having their minds completely erased. I think death would be preferable to such a fate.

Yet, for whatever reason, Tallis says that this isn't tyranny. It's caring, and an interest in the wellbeing of everyone. Which is total BS.

And her description of what the Ben-Hessrath is, was either a blatant like or another sad attempt at trying to convince herself. She said that the Ben-Hessrath protect the Qunari and remind them of who they are, what their purpose is. The Ben-Hessrath are a fantasy version of the Gestapo, secret police who are watching out for any sign of anyone not doing their job, and if you're caught thinking for yourself or not obeying the Qun, they "intervene", which is their way of saying "re-educated" and possibly being subjected to the Qamek.

The Qun is evil, I don't think there's any middling degree about that. And Tallis is a delusional moron for thinking that it's out to help people as opposed to controlling them, I don't there's much dispute about that.

@Mabari-Master

To be totally fair, I don't think the Qun itself is evil. The Qun is merely a philosophy that emphasizes on self-control and people working together as a community and doing things based on merit. But the Qunari, the government that is trying to force the Qun onto other people in the most brutal of manners, is most definitely evil to anyone who isn't one of them.

It's the same thing with Andrastianism. Andrastianism itself was never evil, but the Orlesian Chantry definitely was, depending on where you stood in human society.

^^This is a golden example of false equivocation and “both sides” bias. The Tome of Koslun IS the founding document of qunari society, the two are inextricably linked. Everything wrong with their nation is wrong with their ideology itself. It wasn’t perverted or twisted, what we see is what it was always meant to be, and it is, objectively evil. Erasure of free will, by reeducation or the literal destruction of the mind in a more dramatic fashion than the tranquil, and on a greater scale too. An openly stated goal to eventually go to war with everyone to force their rot on every man, woman and child across the world. A recurring habit of making insane moves that demonstrate an utter disregard for the sovereignty of others and then going “oh… that was a rogue cell again, I SWEAR!” (Kirkwall, Dragon’s Breath), which is really impossible to take seriously. And, oh yeah, the complete erasure of career flexibility by forcing you to stay in your assigned role, forever.

The Orlesian Chantry, which you equate to it, performs large scale charity operations and rewards coin to those willing to help improve their communities via chanter’s board requests, encourages scholarship among its members with enough freedom to allow Genetivi and others to directly question their doctrine as members without consequence. Their detriments? Well, they oppose slavery, but they don’t oppose it hard enough, I guess? The circle of magi wasn’t a perfect system and templars needed better oversight less connected to them than the Seekers, but uh… it allows you to gain seniority and wander into the wilderness alone without any issue, as we see with Ines in Awakening. Could be a hell of a lot worse. Leashing mages, for example! The Dales, but even then Inquisition shows us the elves made the first move as a nation, slaughtering a whole town to avenge one couple.

You have to really be hunting for that result to look at these two things and say “these are equal.”

^^and you know this how? As I understand, except for select quotes, we do not have the full text of the Tome, nor have we testimony and lecture from Koslon himself to explain his rationale. This means that it is possible that the Tome was twisted or taken in a direction that the original philosopher didn't consider.

Also, Kirkwall was a rouge cell; the Arishok was not in Kirkwall to conquer the city and bring it into the Qun but to capture Isabella.

Dragon’s Breath is plausible of being a direct order from the Qun but given we do not have shadow of the doubt proof that makes the matter fall under the logic of “plausible deniability.” which is standard practice.

Unless of course you inform to your supiors being unable to perform the role then you might be transferred to somewhere more fitting, like Iron Bull

Says the Chantry is not comparable. Proceeds to point out the things that makes sense the Chantey comparable. As you said the leash mages and the Templars had a lot of a authority that became easy to abuse. And while the elves of the Dales attacked first conquering the Dales and forcing them to follow the Chantry is not therefore an acceptable response, even more so with actions done before hand to imply wanting to do so anyways.

^Abandoned perhaps, but the last recorded attempt was immediately after the Lamerayn accords. The effort failed, but the timing didn't paint the Chantry as having developed a feeling of religious tolerance.

What we learned from Cassandra's non-mages can be made Trainquil. While we know it is not permanent, the fact is that the reversal has yet to be provided to the Trainquil mages. It's in the works, but there is the cope out of “yeah, not a good idea.” or not working. I also do not doubt that Divine Cass and Divine Viv keep the punishment around, reformed to avoid abuse, of course, but given how well that went when first introduced (Inquisitor Ameridan states his colluges introduced swearing no abuse would happen.) I doubt will hold

@Lethal blade00

Uh, not really. The only reason why the Chantry doesn't really practice the whole "convert or die" song and dance is because, who else is out there that they can conquer and convert that would be worth a damn?

They won't bother trying to conquer the dwarves because the Chantry depends on Orzammar for the lyrium trade, so they leave them to their heathen belief in The Stone.

The Avvar? A bunch of disunited tribes living in a frigid mountain range with no real resources to speak of? Hardly worth the effort.

The only other major nation in Thedas itself that doesn't bend over to kiss the Chantry's sanctimonious ass is Rivain. They're so out of touch with the Chant of Light that their hedge witch practices are still mainstream in their society, and it's home to the only Qunari settlement on the continent. This is most likely because Rivain is probably considered neutral territory between the Qunari and the Chantry where the Llomerryn Accord was signed.

The Chantry, and any other nation for that matter, only ever sought to conquer and convert a people they could gain something from. Case in point: the Exalted March of the Dales. For generations they harassed and made provocations at the Dalish to make them give up their own beliefs, and after the Exalted March was over, the Chantry, I.E., the humans had more lands to plunder and a new race of servants to exploit.

However, all that being said, I think you're correct in mentioning how the Qamek is worse because it's used on everyone, not just mages. And unlike Tranquilization, which is horrible enough by stripping you of your emotions, Qamek is worse because it strips you of your very mind. And for the Qunari to use such a thing even on their own citizens is further proof on how heinous they are.